Transcript
00:00:05 Joanna Lindenbaum
I’m Joanna Lindenbaum, a coach, ritualist, and all-around transformation nerd who is obsessed with helping clients go deep to create more change and results with their clients. I created the Coaching Revolution Podcast to share with you coaching skills, tips, and advice, as well as a deeper understanding of human behavior and of yourself.
00:00:30 Joanna Lindenbaum
so that you can do even better client work and group work, grow your business organically, and know that you’re making a real difference in the world. This is about creating a revolution in the transformational industry so that more practitioners feel amazing about what they do, and so that more of our clients experience life-changing shifts. Let’s get started.
00:01:01 Joanna Lindenbaum
Welcome back to the podcast, and thank you for being here today. I don’t take it for granted at all that your time is important, and I am truly just so honored that you are sharing some of that important time with me here. So let’s dive right in. And I want to start with some real talk, like we always do on this episode. Let’s take a look at this.
00:01:28 Joanna Lindenbaum
There are likely moments in your work right now with clients, and with clients that I know you genuinely care about, where they’re not getting the results that they could be getting. And that’s not because they’re incapable, and it’s also not because you’re not a valuable practitioner.
00:01:53 Joanna Lindenbaum
It’s likely happening. They’re likely not getting the results that they could be getting because something is happening under the surface, something that neither of you quite know how to work with. And over time, that something under the surface quietly adds up.
00:02:20 Joanna Lindenbaum
It looks like clients who don’t follow through, or clients who stall out, or clients who leave before the deeper change happens, or clients who don’t get close to reaching the goals that they hired you for.
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Or maybe it looks like sessions that feel flat or frustrating, or it looks like growth that feels harder than it should feel. Or maybe clients who ask for refunds or slowly fade away, or simply kind of wade through the rest of their sessions with you, but you know that their heart is no longer in the work.
00:03:07 Joanna Lindenbaum
And oftentimes, the net result of all of this is also that you start to question yourself, and if you’re good enough, and if you’re a good enough practitioner. Now, what I’m about to say next is really, really important. And I don’t want to throw anyone under the bus by saying this, but it has to be said.
00:03:36 Joanna Lindenbaum
Traditionally, if you were to go to a business coach or a marketing expert, and if you were to tell them that your clients aren’t getting results, they would likely say that, well, that means that your client just isn’t ready for the work. Or they might say, you know, it means that this person isn’t your ideal client. You’re just calling in the wrong people.
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Or they might say, your clients aren’t coachable. And then what often happens next is that the practitioner starts from scratch to try to identify again who their client avatar is. And
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They go to great lengths to make sure that they pre-qualify out anyone who isn’t quote unquote ready to do the work or exactly perfectly ready to take action. But they still end up with the same client results. Clients who are having trouble moving forward and also clients who haven’t really fallen in love with the work and then they don’t renew and they don’t refer.
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And that’s because very often what’s going on isn’t that the client isn’t ideal or isn’t ready or willing or able. It’s something else that’s going on under the surface. It’s that your client is experiencing fear.
00:05:19 Joanna Lindenbaum
It’s maybe fear of visibility that’s keeping your client from moving forward in their business or in their marketing. Or maybe it’s fear of rejection that’s keeping your client from finally getting on that dating app. Or maybe it’s fear of failure that’s keeping your client from finishing their dissertation.
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Or maybe it’s a fear of abandonment that’s holding your client back from setting the boundary they need to set with their sister. Or maybe it’s the fear of being judged or criticized that’s activating your client’s procrastination on a project. Or the fear of losing control that’s leading to your client’s inability to stop overworking even though they are exhausted and really need to stop overworking.
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on and on and on. And here’s the thing, your client not moving forward inside of your work together, it’s not just that they’re experiencing fear.
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Here’s the part that’s a little bit uncomfortable, but I say it with so much love and compassion and also not from a pedestal at all in any way. I say it because it needs to be said. It’s that your client’s fear isn’t being worked with skillfully.
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They’re not achieving results not only because they’re experiencing fear, but because probably it’s time for you to up your game and devote more attention when it comes to your skills and your capacity to work with fear. And I will tell you, my friends,
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that when you do deepen your skills when it comes to fear, when you do devote the time and the energy to become masterful at it, so much changes. Because fear, it’s not only an uncomfortable feeling. Fear organizes behavior. Fear organizes behavior.
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It quietly shapes what your clients do, what they avoid, what they say yes to, what they say no to. Fear quietly shapes what they pull away from and how they show up and respond inside of their work with you, inside of sessions with you. And fear, it shapes you as well. It shapes what you say.
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what you don’t say, where you lead, where you hold back, how you conduct your client sessions. And if you don’t have a clear, effective, and practiced way of working with fear, it then becomes an invisible ceiling. And what I mean by that is this.
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Even if you understand fear, even if you’re familiar with the nervous system or parts of self, even if you’re highly experienced and really amazing as a practitioner, there is still a difference between knowing about fear and being masterful at working with it as it is happening.
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in a way that gives you traction, in a way that creates movement, in a way that doesn’t override or bypass fear, but actually transforms what’s happening inside of your clients, in a way that is so reliable and so tried and true that you know you can return to that process again and again and again.
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And most practitioners, they simply were never taught this level of precision. But once you learn it, you’re able to take clients to exactly where they need to go so that they can create and achieve so much more.
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And once you learn this way of working with fear, you’re also much more poised to grow your business because you feel confident in your marketing promises and your abilities. You see that your clients are achieving results and you feel confident. And you’re able to find your own footing and forward movement no matter what fear comes up for you.
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If you sense that your clients are struggling because of fear, or if you are struggling because of your own fears, this episode is for you. I’m going to be sharing five specific signs to look for that let you know it’s time to pay more attention to your skills, to how you’re working with fear. And
00:11:08 Joanna Lindenbaum
As we get into it, I want to make sure I say this very clearly. Some of the things that I’m going to share in this episode, if you recognize yourself in them, they may feel a little hard to hear. Like you may feel a little cringy inside if you happen to be experiencing them. But please know this.
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Nothing in this episode or anything that I ever share or ever teach, none of it is for self-judgment or for self-shaming. This is all for your awareness. Sometimes hard to look at. I often say, sorry, not sorry to clients when something uncomfortable comes up, right? But the awareness is important because then
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you have more choices. Because what I don’t want to have happen for you is for you to keep on going day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year, and to be held back by all of the ways that fear tends to hold us back. And becoming aware
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and then making a decision to deeply work with fear in a different way, that’s such an important first step. So let’s get into it. And here is the first sign, sign number one, that lets you know that fear is operating, and you might want to find a different way of working with it.
00:12:58 Joanna Lindenbaum
It’s that your clients, they get it. I’m saying get it in quotes. Your clients get it, but their lives don’t change and they don’t really move forward on their goals. Your clients get it, but their lives don’t change and they don’t really move forward on their goals. So you’ve maybe had this experience, a session where, a client session where everything clicks.
00:13:27 Joanna Lindenbaum
Your client sees the pattern. They name it clearly. You do an amazing job of helping them get to the root of the issue. And they connect the dots, and they see where the pattern comes from, where the behavior comes from. And in the session, they even feel energized, like, yes, this is it.
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And you leave the session thinking, ooh, that was powerful. And I did powerful work with my client. But then the next week, your client didn’t do a thing, or they started, and then they stopped taking action, or something, quote unquote, came up. And at first, you’re probably not too worried. You figure it’s just taking a minute for them to get going, but
00:14:24 Joanna Lindenbaum
It turns out that it’s actually more than that. And you eventually start to feel that something is maybe a little bit or a lot off track with your client and the work you’re doing together. And they can feel it too. It can show up as frustration with themselves, or they subtly doubt the coaching process with you.
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It can maybe show up as they have less energy in sessions with you. There’s way less follow through. And sometimes your client won’t say it directly, but you can still feel it. You can feel what they’re thinking, which is along the lines of, eh, this coaching is meh. It’s not really changing my life. And that’s a hard moment.
00:15:20 Joanna Lindenbaum
Because A, what’s possible for them. that so much more is possible for them. And B, it just honestly, it doesn’t feel very good to know that your client is at best feeling meh about the work that you’re doing together. And the thing that’s often sitting right in the middle of all of this
00:15:44 Joanna Lindenbaum
It’s fear. Your client is experiencing fear, and that’s why they’re having trouble moving forward. Good, old-fashioned fear. Fear that’s active, but that’s not actually being worked with in a way that creates real movement. Because insight is awesome and important, and your clients understanding the root
00:16:11 Joanna Lindenbaum
is very helpful. I recommend helping them understand that. But how many times have you had an amazing insight or breakthrough in understanding? You’ve understood exactly the pattern and what’s going on for you. And you’ve written down notes and it’s been such a revelation. But
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then you’ve gone on to do absolutely nothing with the understanding and the revelation. It just gathers dust in your notebook. The insight alone, it just wasn’t enough. And that’s because when fear is active, insight alone isn’t enough. And
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upping your skills in working with fear is necessary if you want to be able to really support those clients who are experiencing fear. Okay, let’s move on to sign #2 that kind of lets you know it’s time to up your game when you’re working with fear. And the second sign is that your referrals and your renewal rates
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aren’t where you want them to be. So when clients are getting deep, meaningful, life-changing results, they generally don’t just quietly complete their package and disappear. If your clients are truly getting deep, meaningful, life-changing results in their work with you, they often stay. They renew with you. They come back.
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They excitedly tell everybody they know about you and they become advocates and kind of like super fans. So if that’s not happening in your business consistently, it’s definitely something that you want to pay attention to because referrals and renewals are the easiest way to bring in income.
00:18:22 Joanna Lindenbaum
It’s 10 times harder, and research has shown this, it’s 10 times harder to constantly be bringing new people into your business, new clients out of thin air into your work. It’s also so much more expensive. A sustainable business leverages renewals and referrals. And so if you’re noticing that clients
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say they got value from your work together, but they’re still not super excited about your work together. Or if you notice that clients finish their time with you, but they don’t renew. Or that maybe some referrals are trickling in, but not in a way that feels aligned and aligned with all of the ways that you show up and aligned with all of the ways you give from your heart.
00:19:20 Joanna Lindenbaum
that can create a very specific kind of tension for you. Because that you’re good at what you do and that you give so much. And yet, your business isn’t fully reflecting that. What’s often happening underneath all this is that
00:19:44 Joanna Lindenbaum
Clients are getting some results, but not the kind that come from moving through and with the deeper fear patterns that have been running their lives. Not the kind of results that come from befriending fear, not just cognitively, but inside of the nervous system. And without that level of change, it’s harder for clients to become lifelong fans. And if they’re not fans,
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then you’re not poised for referrals or renewals.
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All right, let’s talk about sign number three.
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This is a biggie.
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Sign number three that might let you know it’s time to up your game when it comes to working with fear.
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Find a new way to work with fear.
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It’s that
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your business isn’t growing the way that you want it to and you suspect it’s fear or that you may be hiding, either hiding a little bit or a lot.
00:20:53 Joanna Lindenbaum
Okay, so
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I could tell you at least a dozen stories of moments where my business stalled, or I missed a massive opportunity, or I stood in my own way.
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Not because I didn’t know what to do in my business or in my marketing, but because of fear.
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And
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Since we don’t have many, many hours for me to regale you with story after personal story of when fear has stood in my way, I’m just going to share this brief one that goes way back to the early days of being in business for me.
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It was in my first business where I had a business partner.
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We were doing women’s circles all around Brooklyn.
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And it was back in the old days where we weren’t even doing much e-mail marketing.
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We were literally making flyers and posting them in coffee shops and yoga studios, that kind of thing.
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Anyway, we’d been doing these circles for a while and we had created a signature method for creating change in your life.
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And one day we got an e-mail from a big publishing house out of the blue.
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This publishing house had heard about us.
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I’m not sure if it was from a flyer or we had taught a class at Omega Institute.
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They may have heard.
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gotten kind of heard our name from there.
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But anyway, we got this e-mail out of the blue.
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It was a dream come true.
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It was from a major publisher who basically said, I love this method of yours.
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Would you like to write a book about it?
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Because if you would, we would like to publish it.
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So if you’re interested in this,
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write a proposal and send it to me.
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Now, when we got this e-mail, we were elated.
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This was a dream come true.
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Writing a book and this opportunity for massive visibility.
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Well, guess what happened?
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I feel really cringy to share this.
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It’s still painful now, 25 years later, even talking about it.
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But we never did send in that proposal.
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We hemmed and we hawed and we procrastinated and we felt it needed to be perfect.
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And we kept on going over it and over it and editing it and starting from scratch and all the things.
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until it was already well over a year later from when the publisher had gotten in touch with us and we had never even sent an e-mail back.
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And we finally just abandoned the project.
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Really painful, right?
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So here’s what I want you to notice in that story.
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It wasn’t our not following through and sending in that proposal and having that massive opportunity at the beginning of our career, me and my business partner at the time.
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It wasn’t a lack of us caring.
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We absolutely cared so much.
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It wasn’t a lack of integrity.
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We had so much integrity.
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It was a moment and a series of moments where fear showed up.
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And we didn’t know how to meet the fear in a way that would allow us to move forward with this incredible opportunity that fell into our laps.
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And that moment, that not knowing how to work with my own fear,
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It had a cost.
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Oh, it had a big cost.
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And so this is where it gets very real.
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Because fear isn’t just about what might happen with your clients in your one-on-one sessions or your groups.
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Fear is also about what happens everywhere else in your business.
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If you notice that you’re not showing up consistently in your visibility, if you notice that you’re overthinking or delaying creating content or putting content out into the world, if you’re hesitating to make clear invitations or offers, if you are undercharging or avoiding raising your rates,
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if you are softening your messaging so that it feels safer, if you’re not following up with potential clients or not asking for the renewal, even when it’s clearly aligned, I am willing to pinky promise that fear is playing a role.
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Probably a much bigger role than you even realize.
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And
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The fear, it’s not going to stop getting in your way until you really work with it.
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And again, it may not always look like fear on the surface.
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Fear usually sounds like reasonable, legit reasons to not move forward.
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It’s sneaky that way.
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It sounds like, oh, I can’t do this until I have more clarity.
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Or I can’t do that because I don’t want to be pushy.
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Or I’m not going to put that out there because it doesn’t feel authentic yet.
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Or I’m waiting to make the offer or launch the website or insert whatever.
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I’m waiting until I feel more confident.
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Or I’m not going to put this out there yet, because it’s not perfect yet, right?
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Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
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But if you slow it down, if you really take a look under the cover, there are very specific fears underneath all that.
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Fear of visibility, of being seen, judged, misunderstood,
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Fear of rejection, of hearing no or feeling dismissed.
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Fear of being a fraud, or what if I’m not actually as good as they think?
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Fear of responsibility, and what if they don’t get results?
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Fear of outgrowing who you’ve been and losing because of it.
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And when those fears aren’t being worked with directly, you don’t just feel them.
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You organize your business around them.
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You play smaller than you could.
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You hold back in the moments that really matter.
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You delay decisions that would actually move things forward.
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And over time, your business reflects that more and more and more.
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And your bank account may reflect that as well.
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Not because you’re not capable.
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I know that you are very capable.
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But because fear is quietly setting the pace in your business.
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Fear.
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And when that goes unworked with and unworked with in really masterful ways, you don’t just hold back once.
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You build a business around holding back.
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Okay, I told you that some of these were a little hard to hear, but again, I share them with love and I hope it’s helpful to just really like hone in and see what is.
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There’s two more signs that I want to share, signs that kind of let you know it’s time for a different way of working with fear or to devote more time to learning how to work with fear.
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And the next sign is this.
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There are certain client sessions or groups that you lead that leave you feeling drained, resentful, or questioning yourself.
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OK, so let’s unpack this one.
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Have you ever had a session or a series of sessions or have been leading a group
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where the client or clients are circling, resistant, overwhelmed, shut down.
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And you’re in it with them.
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You’re trying.
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Oh, you are trying so, so hard to support them, to move them forward.
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You show up with love and compassion.
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You ask thoughtful questions.
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You try to make connections.
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You reflect.
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You offer insight.
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You maybe even try to work somatically, but nothing really lands.
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And there’s a moment, sometimes a subtle moment, sometimes a blaring moment, where you think, I don’t know what to do here.
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I’ve tried and tried, and I just don’t know what to do.
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Or you think, I should be able
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to help more than I’m helping right now.
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Or maybe even there’s a frustration that says, there’s something wrong with my client.
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What is wrong with these people that they can’t move forward?
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And all at the same time, you want the session to be over already because it’s exhausting and it’s hard.
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But also, you’re scared for the session to start coming to a close because you haven’t really gotten anywhere meaningful yet.
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And those sessions, they don’t just end when the call ends.
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They stay with you.
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They take up mental space.
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They impact your energy.
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You feel drained or annoyed with yourself or annoyed with your clients.
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Those kinds of sessions, they can even make you hesitate going into the next session.
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And that’s one of the things that can happen when fear is present for your clients or for you and when you don’t really have an effective and reliable way to work with it.
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Okay, here is our last sign.
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You know that there’s another level in the client work, but you
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just can’t quite access it.
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that there’s another level in the client work, but you can’t quite access it.
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So this one is often subtle, but if it’s there, you definitely feel it.
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And it usually looks like this.
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Your sessions are good.
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Your clients are engaged.
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They get insights.
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They experience some shifts.
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But
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There are moments, sometimes brief moments, sometimes repeated moments, where you can feel that there’s something right there, like right, there, a deeper truth, a more vulnerable edge, a deeper layer where real change could happen.
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And
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It’s not quite that you’re skimming the surface in the session, but at the same time, you know that there is more depth and that depth could change so much for your client if it could be accessed.
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And yet, you just don’t know how to lead your client there to that layer.
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to that deeper place.
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And it ends up looking like maybe staying an explanation instead of getting to the deeper root or circling the same awareness without a real shift.
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Or maybe it looks like your clients are touching, they finally, they’re touching something real and then they pull back and you just follow them out and it’s hard to get there again.
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Or maybe it feels like sessions that feel valuable for sure.
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but not quite transformational.
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And when you’re not consistently getting to that deeper layer in your client sessions, the work that you’re doing with clients is helpful, but not necessarily life-changing.
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There’s maybe
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some forward movement towards goals, some good work, but there isn’t internal reorganization happening.
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And maybe for you, there’s this kind of quiet sense of, I know that there’s more available here.
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And while, of course,
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Being able to get to the deeper layers is related to so many skills, including breakthrough questioning skills and creating awareness skills, et cetera, et cetera.
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Very often, the getting to the deeper layer is directly connected to your ability to stay with and skillfully work with fear and with the body.
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Okay, so first, just to review, because I know that was a lot, we talked about 5 main signs that let you know it’s probably time to up your game when it comes to working with fears and developing your skills to work with fear.
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And those five signs that we spoke about are, number one, your clients get it, but their lives still don’t change.
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Number 2, your referrals and renewals aren’t exactly where you want them to be.
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Number 3, certain sessions leave you feeling drained, resentful, or questioning yourself.
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Number 4, your business isn’t growing the way that you want it to.
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Number five, you know that there’s another layer or level, but you can’t quite access it in your sessions.
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Now, here’s the big thing that I want you to take from today’s episode.
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If any of these five signs, or if all of these five signs are active for you, there is nothing wrong with you, your work,
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or your business, there is nothing wrong.
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You are, as always, whole and complete, no matter what.
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And as always– I said this in the beginning of this episode, and I’m going to say it again–
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As always, I want you to know I’m not sharing any of this from a pedestal of perfection, because, of course, I’ve experienced over the decades these things, too.
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I share not so that you judge where you’re at, but instead, I wanted us to look at these five signs so that I could normalize them and bring awareness
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to where you need to go next.
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So again, you are whole and complete.
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There is nothing wrong with you.
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There is nothing wrong with your clients.
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And if you do recognize one or more of these signs that we’ve been discussing, it likely means that there is room for improvement when you work with fear.
00:38:30 Joanna Lindenbaum
with your client’s fear, and with your own fear.
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It likely means it’s time to gain some new skills or sharpen your skills, and that devoting the time and energy to do that will pay off in big ways.
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And you want to pay attention to this.
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You want to give working with fear serious focus, because when you get to the next level of being able to work with fear,
00:38:58 Joanna Lindenbaum
A lot can open up and change.
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You’re more poised to have your clients be amazed at the work that you’re doing together, to have your clients be so grateful for the work that you’re doing together.
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You’re more poised to help your clients create real change and achieve even their stretchier goals.
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And, you know, so often when fear comes up,
00:39:27 Joanna Lindenbaum
for our clients or for ourselves, we try to fix the fear or get rid of the fear or reframe it or reason with it or push past it or override it or ignore it.
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And sometimes any one of those things might create, yeah, might create a little movement.
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But most of the time, none of those solutions
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create lasting change.
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Because fear is not something to eliminate.
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It’s something to work with.
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And there are very specific actual skills
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involved in getting to the root of how the fear is operating and then knowing how to engage with the fear, reclaim it, and help it reorganize.
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I’ve been teaching these skills through what I call the befriend your fear methodology for over 2 decades now.
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And what I can share with you is that anyone can learn these skills if they want to.
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It’s just that you need to be willing to devote a little bit of time and attention to it.
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And when practitioners actually learn how to befriend the fear, sessions change.
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Clients move forward and they go deeper.
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And your confidence increases because you know that you’re really helping your clients.
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And practically speaking, when you actually learn how to befriend fear, you become more poised for renewals to increase, referrals to increase, and for your reputation to strengthen.
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Because the results that you’re co-creating are different.
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And when you apply this to your own fears, when you learn to befriend your own fears, you become willing to be more seen, to do more outreach, and to take the bold steps that are required to grow your business.
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I can pinky promise you that if I were to get an e-mail from a publisher today, fear would not stand in my way because I have worked
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on that fear of not being good enough and that fear of needing for things to be perfect, I would seize and leverage that opportunity.
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Okay, so before we close, I want to make sure that you know I’ve got a special free masterclass coming up, and it’s an introduction to the Befriend Your Fear method.
00:42:35 Joanna Lindenbaum
The Befriend Your Fear method is one of the number one skills you want to have in your toolbox.
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if you know you want to go deeper and be more effective in helping your clients who are stuck.
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So if today’s episode is resonating with you, I really hope you’ll join us for that masterclass.
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And I will make sure to put the link in the show notes.
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So as you move through your client sessions or the groups that you lead this week,
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I don’t want you to analyze or overthink this, but I do want to invite you to gently notice, where is fear showing up?
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In your clients and in yourself?
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And what happens in those moments?
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Where do things tighten?
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Where do they stall?
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Where do you pull back or where do your clients pull back?
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Because those moments, they’re not problems or something to be fixed.
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They are invitations.
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They’re doorways into the deepest, most meaningful work that you can do.
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And the truth is,
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When you learn how to meet fear in those moments, not avoid it, not override it, not fix it, but truly work with the fear, everything opens.
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Your clients opens.
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Your confidence opens.
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Your capacity opens.
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And the kind of results you’re able to create together with your clients
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they become so much more powerful and so much more fulfilling.
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So just start there with awareness, with curiosity, with a little more willingness to see what’s really happening.
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Because there is so much more available to you here.
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And I cannot wait to keep exploring this with you.
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As always, thank you, thank you, thank you for being here, for being the kind of practitioner who really cares and who is devoted to co-creating real results and transformation with your clients.
00:45:21 Joanna Lindenbaum
If today’s episode impacted you, if it resonated with you, please let me know.
00:45:29 Joanna Lindenbaum
Shoot me a note or an e-mail.
00:45:32 Joanna Lindenbaum
Let me know what resonated.
00:45:34 Joanna Lindenbaum
I read and personally respond to every single e-mail that we get about the podcast.
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It will really make my day to hear from you.
00:45:45 Joanna Lindenbaum
And of course, as always, if you know someone who would really, really value this episode,
00:45:53 Joanna Lindenbaum
Please share it with them.
00:45:55 Joanna Lindenbaum
And if you love this episode, please give us a five-star review on whatever platform you’re listening.
00:46:04 Joanna Lindenbaum
I hope to see you soon.
