Transcript
00:00:05 Joanna Lindenbaum
I’m Joanna Lindenbaum, a coach ritualist and all around transformation nerd who is obsessed with helping clients go deep to create more change.
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And results with their clients.
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I created the Coaching Revolution podcast to share with you coaching skills, tips and advice, as well as a deeper understanding of human behavior and.
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Yourself so that you can do even better client work and group work.
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Grow your business organically.
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And know that you’re making a real difference in the world.
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This is about creating a revolution in the transformational industry so that more practitioners feel amazing about what they do.
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And so that more of our clients experience life changing shifts, let’s get started.
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OK.
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Welcome back to the podcast.
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And I am very excited for today’s.
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We are going to dive into the topic of fame, the drive to be famous, the ways we.
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Might strive for fame in one way or another, whatever our version of fame is.
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And how it might show up for some of our clients and maybe most importantly, we’re gonna look at how to manage and leverage this impulse towards fame because.
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There are times when the desire to be famous might be really helpful.
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And then there’s the other times where the desire is completely not helpful at all, and in fact.
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It’s misguided. I decided to take the time on the episode today to to look at this topic to devote an episode to this topic, #1, because I think it’s a biggie in the coaching industry.
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A lot of talk.
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In the coaching industry about being famous, even if those exact words aren’t quite used.
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The other reason why I chose this topic and I really wanted to devote some time to this topic.
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Is because it’s something that I’ve been thinking about personally for a long time, and I’ve been sharing and teaching on it for a long time now as well.
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I’ve also coached so many people over the decades.
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Who have either chased fame in some sort of way or have pursued.
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Food.
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Fame in some sort of way and off the bat I’ll just share with you personally that there are moments when I think I want a certain type of fame.
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Not to be famous like a huge movie star or a politician, but fame within the coaching industry like to be very, very well known or to have a million followers on social media.
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Or to have something go viral or to have 1000 people in a program that I.
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I sometimes have those desires and those impulses, and that desire is complex.
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Is not a simple thing. It is not.
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A1 layered.
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There’s a push and a pull to it, and there are many layers to it.
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There are moments that the desire to be famous makes me happy. There are moments.
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When it’s motivated me to do incredible things in my career that I am so, so grateful that I’ve achieved there.
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When it’s inspired me to make even bigger impact in the world and I’m so glad that I’ve been able to serve in those ways. But that being said.
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There are also moments.
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Where the urge or impulse to be famous hasn’t served me so well.
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There are moments that I’ve really judged myself.
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Even for having this desire.
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There are moments where I’ve had shame that this is something that fame is something that would drive me.
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There are moments also where I can see that it’s been an illusion.
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Where I can see that I’ve somehow been tricked or tricked myself into thinking that I would be happier or more satisfied, or more of a valuable human?
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Being even if I achieve that theme.
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And I wanna break some of this down with you.
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Today, because I’m hoping that it’ll be valuable for you personally, in case you experience any of the things that I just mentioned as well as I’m hoping that it’s gonna give you.
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More insight into some of the human behavior for your clients or future clients who might bring some of this forward.
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Who might have aspirations towards fame so that you can understand more how?
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Support them.
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As I said, this topic of fame and the desire and the push and pull of it is something that I’ve been thinking about for over a decade now and the first time I wrote an article about it was.
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In 2013, and it was inspired by a concert that I went to see John and I went to see one of my favorite musical artists of all time, Aimee Mann.
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And if you aren’t familiar with Aimee Mann, I highly recommend checking out her music.
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A musician who’s been around for over 30 years now with.
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A very successful career.
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And I love Amy’s music because I find it to be deep and soulful and really full of rich content, melodies and ideas.
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Over the years, Amy has had a few bigger hits. I think she’s probably most known for doing the soundtrack to the movie Magnolia, and it’s an excellent soundtrack, but for the most part.
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Aimee Mann’s work.
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It’s received a ton of critical acclaim.
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And she has a consistent, loyal following.
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She hasn’t made it to.
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The top 10 on the charts. Right, she’s.
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Not what we would call.
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Uber famous when it comes to being a musician.
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Now when I went to her show in 2013, I had seen her play a couple of times before.
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And it was exciting and thrilling to see her again. And at that show in 2013.
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Whatever reason.
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I started as I was sitting there.
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To compare that show to what I imagined, a Lady Gaga show might be like now remember, this was 10 years ago.
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And Lady Gaga was big back then.
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So that’s who had come to mind back.
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I’m so out of pop culture that I don’t even know who might be in comparison with her today.
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So anyway, Amy wasn’t playing in the kind of arena that I envisioned. Lady Gaga might play in, right?
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With thousands of seats instead.
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The theater, which was a beautiful converted church. It held only about 500 seats.
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It was completely sold out.
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There weren’t any flashy like show light shows like in a big.
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Or big screens with videos, like those big arena concerts, but instead at a time show there were gorgeous stained glass windows that were lit up inside inside of the theater.
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Amy didn’t have backup singers or dancers.
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Or change outfits numerous times throughout her show. She wore jeans and at shirt. Her hair was not done perfectly, and she spoke directly to her audience, she told.
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Lots of fun and pertinent stories about her life in really intimate ways, she joked around with her audience.
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Not as if she were a performer, but.
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As if she were speaking to a bunch of friends and.
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And sitting in the audience, you kind of just felt like you were hanging out with Amy Mann not going to see a superstar in concert.
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She didn’t put on any pretenses and.
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She even came out on stage to play a few songs with her opening act before her own set, not worrying about conventional concert rules that silently say that the main act.
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Is.
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Better than or above the opening.
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With Amy Mann at her show, there was a kind of level playing field all around with the opening act and with the people who had gathered to see her and meet with her.
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Now because of my own relationship with fame and.
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The parts of me that you know desired to be famous.
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As I was sitting in that church and observing all of this this whole concert, I was wondering if Amy wished that she was playing in a massive arena, if she had any sadness or frustration.
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For not being able to fill a theater that big, and of course she was already a certain level of famous she been played on the radio tons of times.
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She could fill A500 seat theater, but I wondered, did she want more?
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She wish inside of herself that she had that huge type of fame.
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That Lady Gaga had.
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Did she have some kind of yearning to be a household name to be 1 of?
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The biggest names in her industry and.
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As I was wondering all of this, I looked around the theater and here’s what I noticed.
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I noticed that all of the fans in the theater.
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They were almost in a trance with the beauty and the power of the show.
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And the entire experience, it was so clear as I looked around at the audience.
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That pretty much everybody that was at that show was there because they absolutely loved and adored Aimee Mann.
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These were loyal, devoted fans.
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Fans who knew each one of her songs, not just.
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A famous ones.
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Fans who knew every word to every song, including me. I was one of those fans.
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Nobody that I saw in this theater was there to see a spectacle, to see a light show, to see video or outfit changes, or came there just because they happen to know.
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One famous song of the artist, now to be clear, I’m not saying that everyone that goes to a Lady Gaga show or a Beyoncé concert are there to see the light.
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That there’s anything at all wrong with going to.
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An arena show or being an arena artist at all.
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I’ve been to my fair share of arena shows and a number of them have been, you know, what I’ve called transcendent experiences.
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Especially when I love the artist and you know, I’m a big music dork.
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Tell you some of my favorite arena artists that I’ve seen.
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Don’t judge me.
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You don’t like these guys, but I’ve seen Billy Joel and it’s been an incredible experience and Stevie Wonder.
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And Paul McCartney and Tori Amos, even though she’s maybe not quite an arena artist, right?
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To name a few.
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Been incredible experiences.
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Anyway, my point is not to say that there’s anything wrong with that.
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But instead.
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To say that there’s also something to be said for not being in the huge and massive arena.
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I realized that night in 2013 that Amy Mann’s music actually wouldn’t really make sense.
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In a huge arena.
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It would kind of get lost.
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In that kind of space.
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For her work, it was much more powerful in that more intimate setting.
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And of course, I’ll never know if this is true or not, but I imagined as I was observing Amy onstage, it didn’t seem that she needed to be in front of more people.
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Or have thousands upon thousands of audience members there.
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I may have just been projecting this on to her, but I don’t think I was.
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Seemed pretty clear that she was loving the experience exactly as it was.
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She was delivering so much value that evening.
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Because it was a small space.
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S.
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I’ll also share that I know that I wouldn’t have enjoyed that particular evening as much if it was in a huge arena.
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I needed to receive her music.
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In that smaller space in that smaller venue.
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And all of those realizations brought me to a realization about myself and my own work.
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I could see so clearly.
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That my own work for the most.
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It’s so deep and so powerful and so intimate that most of it fits better in a, quote, UN quote, smaller theater or small auditorium.
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Rather than in a quote UN quote stadium.
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And I really understood in that moment.
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That for most of my programming I’m not interested in droves of strangers that are unfamiliar with me and my work to be in the room.
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I actually prefer a smaller, loyal following of engaged people who really want to do the work, who really resonate with my message.
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And who?
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Want to do the work with me?
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I’m interested in long term relationships, real relationships.
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With my clients instead of one way relationships or temporary fans, I’m also committed to being myself and showing up authentically without any of those.
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Pretenses that fame can sometimes bring up no matter what.
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So back in 2013, when I realized all of this.
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It was really a revelation for me.
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I could see pretty clearly.
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How so much of my need and my longing to be famous?
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You know, whatever famous meant in the coaching industry.
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The longing was really more about what the coaching industry was telling me I should want and I should achieve versus what.
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I actually really wanted and what was right for me. Those of you listeners who know me well.
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You know, I could get on a soapbox about this for quite a while, but I’ll just share briefly right now and you can see listener if you agree with me on this.
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I think that.
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The coaching industry, even though it has great intentions in this.
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It kind of sets a lot of coaches and practitioners up, either for failure or to feel ashamed or to be disappointed.
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Because there’s kind of this spoken and unspoken understanding.
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In a lot of the coaching industry, especially what you see a lot on social media where it feels like the absolute best thing you can do is to be famous. You know, to have millions.
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Of followers to to always be bigger and bigger and bigger.
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And bigger is always equated with better.
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And there’s really no honoring or acknowledging of the pursuit of a smaller business or a more intimate business.
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Or no social media following.
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And I think that.
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This does again, this does a real.
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It does a disservice because bigger, bigger, bigger isn’t actually necessarily what’s better and aligned for some people.
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And also because not everybody can be Tony Robbins.
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Right. It’s just it’s not.
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It’s not necessarily possible.
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It also does a disservice to clients.
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So there’s some programs that are gonna work best with thousands of people in it. You know, without that intimacy.
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Without that high touch.
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But the truth is that most clients in the coaching industry, they’re gonna do their best.
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Gonna achieve more results.
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Gonna do.
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The deeper transformation, when it is a smaller container, when it is a higher touch, right?
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The other thing I really saw when I was in that theater in 2013, I had seen this before, but it was a really good reminder is that sometimes.
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I was being motivated by likes and followers and how more lights and followers might make me feel more validated or better about myself.
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Versus being motivated by true goals and desires and being motivated by wanting to make impact and to be in my purpose, and to be in my creative expression.
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In other words, sometimes.
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The desire for fame, it’s in a.
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Illusion.
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Right, it’s.
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It’s what’s.
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It is the need to be validated versus the need to make impact and we always wanna be clear about this and not that there’s anything wrong.
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About being famous at all, or wanting to be famous, I wanna be clear about that. We’re gonna talk about that in a little bit.
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But we want to be really aligned in the motivation for it, because that need to be validated by fame.
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Like the well, that can never be filled.
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You can get bigger and bigger and bigger, but if you don’t do the inner work.
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On feeling good enough inside of yourself.
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None of that outer validation is going to help you.
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At all.
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And so back to the theater with all of these revelations and realizations.
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I made.
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The firm decision that to want to be a Lady Gaga of coaching wasn’t for me and that I was really more of an Amy man of coaching.
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And just to be clear, it’s not that I was thinking I would consistently fill theaters of 500 like Amy Man does.
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But my coaching industry version of Amy Mann was basically the business that I have, which is to have a loyal following.
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Right where the number didn’t matter as much.
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As the quality of the relationship with my clients.
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And the understanding that I do most of my good work.
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In more intimate settings, OK.
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So maybe that sounds like a happy ending.
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And we can just wrap here.
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Except like I said earlier, there is layers to all of this.
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And there was a whole other layer to my grappling with fame.
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As well.
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And it’s one that I think you might really resonate with and is important for you to note. You know, for your clients who.
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With.
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So let me tell you about it. What I couldn’t.
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See back in 2013 when I decided that I was an Amy Mann.
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Is this I’ve been able to really.
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See it so much more.
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Clearly, the last several years.
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While it.
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Is very true that much of my work is meant for more intimate groups and mostly not for thousands in a workshop at a time.
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While that is true, here’s what’s also true.
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When I.
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That decision that I wasn’t a Lady Gaga.
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It was a convenient decision, looking back on it now, I can see that I was so very righteous about it.
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Oh.
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And it.
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Convenient because it helped distract me from some of the true and authentic longing that I had for.
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Much, much bigger visibility, in other words.
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It gave me an excuse.
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To not pay attention to the parts of me that, for real and inauthentic ways, wanted to be more famous.
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Now, for those of you who know about shadow, or who have trained on shadow with me, you’ll understand when I say that I put the part of me the aligned part of me that wanted fame.
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I put it into shadow with that 2013 decision.
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I decided that it simply wasn’t right for me, and I made even this desire to be famous in my.
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I made it kind of bad and wrong and shameful in a way without fully admitting it. I decided that it was a dirty thing.
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To want to be famous.
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Wasn’t righteous.
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It wasn’t authentic enough. In some ways. It’s not right when it’s it’s motivated by.
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Followers or?
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But sometimes fame can be righteous.
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It doesn’t have to be a dirty thing.
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It can be a lie.
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And I can see now that the parts of me that authentically did want to be bigger, I put them into.
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So that I wouldn’t have to be.
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In the discomfort.
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Of longing for that fame and not having it.
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It was easier for me.
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It didn’t hurt as much to say.
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Know.
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That’s just not for me.
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I don’t want it.
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It’s not right for.
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It’s kind of a dirty thing, so I’m just gonna.
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Focus on.
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Staying small.
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And it’s really funny because a friend of mine who’s also a coach and very intuitive and very perceptive at the time when I was telling her about, you know, this decision that I don’t want that kind of fame.
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She really called me out on.
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She tried to tell me that I maybe wasn’t completely acknowledging all of my true desires in my business.
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But I was so.
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Deep in denial. And I just didn’t wanna feel that longing. Slash disappointed, feeling about it anymore, that I didn’t listen to this friend at all.
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Thought she got me.
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Completely wrong.
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And in part she did get me completely wrong, because for the most part I don’t want to be a Lady Gaga or a Tony Robbins.
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That kind of pressure is not really for.
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It’s not my path that kind of huge, huge responsibility of all of those followers.
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Is not. You know, I don’t really see that as part of my path. The kind of energy that you have to hold when you have that level of fame, it’s not for everyone. And I don’t think.
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Think that it is really for me when you hold that kind of fame so much gets projected onto you by others.
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I don’t know that that’s the right.
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Path for me in the business that I have now, I I get projected onto enough, right.
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Again, it is for some people, right?
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But for the most part, not for me.
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That being said, that friend of mine, she was also in part right about me because there was a little part of me that wanted that and does still want it. And so over the last.
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Couple of years I’ve started to really look more with more intentional and thoughtful ways.
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At the part of me that does want something.
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And I’ve really engaged it in a different way and owned and accepted more. This part of me and through this work I’ve been able.
00:31:13
To.
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Really make this part of me that does want something. I’ve I’ve made it work for me in a better way so that it’s not in that longing, disappointed.
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I’ve also.
00:31:29 Joanna Lindenbaum
It work for me in ways that allow me to still be my Amy Mann self.
00:31:38 Joanna Lindenbaum
Am I more intimate self, but just with little pieces?
00:31:40
What?
00:31:43 Joanna Lindenbaum
Of Lady Gaga sprinkled in this podcast actually is one example of that.
00:31:50 Joanna Lindenbaum
This is a way for me to be a little bit more in my Lady Gaga self, if you will, to share my work where.
00:32:00 Joanna Lindenbaum
Many, many, many people can benefit all at once.
00:32:05 Joanna Lindenbaum
This podcast doesn’t need the kind of intimacy and high touch with each person that my trainings need, and I really, really want for many, many people to listen to this podcast.
00:32:25 Joanna Lindenbaum
I want it because I think what we’re doing here is so important and I want it to touch a lot of people quite honestly.
00:32:35 Joanna Lindenbaum
I want it because the part of me that wants to be famous just wants it right.
00:32:40 Joanna Lindenbaum
I can own that now.
00:32:43 Joanna Lindenbaum
Now the bulk of my time and my energy and my effort, if I were to guess, will still always be devoted to the more intimate.
00:32:57 Joanna Lindenbaum
Right to more of those Amy Mann things. But it is giving me so much joy to sprinkle all of that in, in balanced and aligned ways.
00:33:12 Joanna Lindenbaum
With the more Lady Gaga pieces if.
00:33:18 Joanna Lindenbaum
OK, my friends. So.
00:33:20 Joanna Lindenbaum
One of the.
00:33:21 Joanna Lindenbaum
Many things that I hope that you received from this episode is that there are so many ways to do any career path.
00:33:36 Joanna Lindenbaum
Including coaching, and that the most famous or the most visible is not always the best way or the most aligned way.
00:33:51 Joanna Lindenbaum
Bigger isn’t always better, or what’s most satisfying.
00:33:56 Joanna Lindenbaum
Even though so many coaches out there will tell you that that’s the only way to go.
00:34:04 Joanna Lindenbaum
Smaller can very often be more powerful and more satisfying and more aligned. Not to mention there’s something to be said for clients who, for having clients who feel that they have personal and intimate relationships with you.
00:34:25 Joanna Lindenbaum
Versus.
00:34:25 Joanna Lindenbaum
Being that teacher on the stage.
00:34:31 Joanna Lindenbaum
It’s so valuable when you can get clear on who you are and who you want to be, and then live by that. If you reach into your heart and you find that you truly are.
00:34:47 Joanna Lindenbaum
A Lady Gaga or a Beyoncé, then yay. Strive for that and go for it.
00:34:55 Joanna Lindenbaum
If you reach into your heart and you find that you’re an Amy, man, or a combination of the two or a street performer, or anything else, there are so many different ways.
00:35:10 Joanna Lindenbaum
Embrace it.
00:35:11 Joanna Lindenbaum
It.
00:35:11 Joanna Lindenbaum
Take joy and pleasure in knowing that you know who you are and.
00:35:16 Joanna Lindenbaum
You have a unique way about you and then set goals that reflect all of that.
00:35:23 Joanna Lindenbaum
Just blindly yearn or strive for the biggest or grandest business ever. Just because.
00:35:31 Joanna Lindenbaum
Culture or the coaching industry have told you that that is the.
00:35:36 Joanna Lindenbaum
That is the way to be. That is what’s.
00:35:40 Joanna Lindenbaum
Know yourself and be yourself and appreciate the diversity of the paths that are available and help your clients to do the same.
00:35:53 Joanna Lindenbaum
When a client tells you that they want to be famous or they want to be a billionaire, or they want a million followers or any version of that.
00:36:04 Joanna Lindenbaum
That before you take that at face value and run with it before you rush to strategize on a plan for it, do your client the service of.
00:36:19 Joanna Lindenbaum
Exploring with them if that is the right goal, if that is the right path for them, help them answer the harder questions. The questions that just go beyond the cultural messaging.
00:36:34 Joanna Lindenbaum
And and into their.
00:36:37 Joanna Lindenbaum
Help them answer questions like what is it that I actually want?
00:36:42 Joanna Lindenbaum
What is the best container for the type of work that I love to do?
00:36:49 Joanna Lindenbaum
How will pursuing fame enhance or detract from my?
00:36:55 Joanna Lindenbaum
Help your clients answer questions like what’s going to be most satisfying for me.
00:37:01 Joanna Lindenbaum
Do I want this because?
00:37:05 Joanna Lindenbaum
I actually want this.
00:37:07 Joanna Lindenbaum
Or because the culture told me that this is the best thing.
00:37:11 Joanna Lindenbaum
Am I chasing likes and followers for the sake of chasing likes and followers so that I can feel better about myself? Or is there a bigger purpose to this?
00:37:26 Joanna Lindenbaum
And if so, what is that bigger purpose?
00:37:29 Joanna Lindenbaum
My dear listener, I hope that you not only help your clients answer these questions.
00:37:38 Joanna Lindenbaum
But that you continue to answer these questions for yourself.
00:37:44 Joanna Lindenbaum
OK, I would love to hear what you’re taking away from this episode, as always.
00:37:54 Joanna Lindenbaum
I love to hear from you.
00:37:56 Joanna Lindenbaum
Get in touch. Let me know.
00:38:00 Joanna Lindenbaum
And as always, my request is if you liked this episode, please let us know.
00:38:08 Joanna Lindenbaum
Leave a review.
00:38:10 Joanna Lindenbaum
It is not only helpful for me, but it is so helpful.
00:38:15
A4.
00:38:15 Joanna Lindenbaum
For this podcast to become more famous.
00:38:20 Joanna Lindenbaum
So I’m sending you all lots of love and I can’t wait for our next episode.
